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Hvordan ser du på Israel? Som en terrorstat eller en stat som kjemper mot terrorisme?


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Skjønner på én måte Israel godt. De må ha rett til å forsvare seg selv. De har så vidt jeg vet ikke begått noen krigsforbrytelser heller.

 

Det er så mye fokus på hvor fæle Israel er, men nesten ingen tenker over at Hamas er mye, mye verre.

Endret av pumaen
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Dette med å advare folk før man bomber, høres jo flott ut. Men jeg leste et sted en (vestlig) journalist som var i Libanon under den siste krigen, fortalte at i praksis blir dette en eneste sammenmost mølje av psykologisk krigføring.

 

Finner ikke igjen akkurat det, men her er noen andre sitater om dette :

 

"They had dropped leaflets in the past, but never to the extent that they did in July and August 2006. During the conflict, there were 47 leaflet missions over Lebanon, with a total of more then 17,000,000 leaflets dropped. In addition to that, more then 700,000 computerized voice messages were delivered to citizens in Lebanon."

 

http://www.psywar.org/israellebanon.php

 

"Text messages and phone calls add psychological aspect to warfare in Gaza.

 

(...)

 

There is also a mistrust of Israel's phone calls, some of which are recorded and some of which are live, warning people they have just minutes to evacuate before they bomb the house.

 

Hamdi Shakura, a human rights lawyer at the Palestinian Human Rights Centre in Gaza says despite the hundreds of phone calls to families warning their house is about to be blown up, only 37 have been destroyed."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/0...ians-middleeast

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Synes ikke handlingene til Israel virker mer gjennomtenkte enn hva man kan forvente av en tilbakestående femåring. Det de gjør kan sammenlignes med å pisse i buksa for å holde varmen. Kanskje får de redusert antallet Hamas-raketter en liten periode, men samtidig har de skapt grobunn for hat og ekstremisme i mangfoldige tiår framover ved å drepe så mange sivile. At "det var Hamas som begynte" er godt mulig. At "Israel har rett til å forsvare seg selv" kan så være. Men disse og andre unnskyldninger man ellers bare hører i sandkassa i barnehagen, hjelper Israel fint lite. Effektene er de samme.

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Hvor lenge skal du forsøke å bortforklare at de linkene jeg har vist til viser at Israel utøver rasisme mot palestinerne?

 

Nøyaktig like lenge som du fortsetter med å late som om det ikke er motbevist. :)

 

Hverken du eller noen andre har ikke klart å motbevise noe som helst!

 

Faktisk så innrømte du israelsk rasisme mot palestinerne i den forrige tråden!

 

Jeg gjorde det? Interessant. :)

 

Faktisk så er jeg Jesus. Sånn btw.

 

Ja, det gjorde du.

 

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?showtopi...p=11812636&

 

Se innlegg 1989

Endret av Glimti
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Angående det med at Israel slipper flyveblader:

 

Det er fint at de advarer slik at sivile kan komme seg unna. Men samtidig bør det ikke være så vanskelig for Hamas-militsen å komme seg unna med sitt utstyr? Hva er da vitsen med å bombe?

Dette handler ikke bare om å drepe HAMAS-folk. Det handler om å ødelegge infrastruktur tunneller i en særstilling, de går også etter rakettoppskytingsrampene, og bare det å erobre området er lurt for å hindre flere angrep.

 

Regner også med at de kom frem til at det er bedre å advare alle, enn ingen.

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Ja, det gjorde du.

 

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?showtopi...p=11812636&

 

Se innlegg 1989

 

Jeg skrev:

 

Vet du hva? Jeg skal innrømme at det utsagnet ble litt vagt. Jeg omformulerer meg: Arabere blir ikke diskriminert av Israel som stat.

 

Det jeg prøvde å presisere som jeg tror ALLE bortsett fra deg fikk med seg var at rasisme fra enkeltpersoner er svært utbredt. Du vet virkelig hvordan gjøre deg tungnem. :)

Endret av Zeph
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Igjen demonstrerer du at mange av Israels støttespillere er mer 'katolske enn paven'.

 

Ehud Olmert, israelsk statsminister:

 

The prime minister said that over the years the State maintained a policy of discrimination, thereby creating a vicious cycle. On the one hand, the Arab community was unable to create management mechanisms, while on the other hand, Israeli governments deprived Arabs of rights that could help them improve their quality of life, he said.

 

"I feel great discomfort over the fact that the State conducted itself improperly for many years, and should have made a fundamental change," he said. "We have not yet overcome the obstacle of discrimination. This is deliberate discrimination, and the gap is intolerable. There is no arguing that some government ministries did not hire Arabs for years."

 

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7...3622276,00.html

 

Det hadde nesten vært underholdende at Israels forsvarer i Norge kommer med utsagn selv landets egen statsminister ville funnet å tøye sannheten litt vel langt. Om det ikke var for at det var et ganske så trist tema man ignorerte og valgte å late som ikke var et problem.

 

Heldigvis er ikke alle (jødiske) israelere like blinde for den diskrimineringen som foregår.

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Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race or sex.[93]

 

The website for the Israeli government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of the Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)." [98] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arab Christians, and among Muslims, solely the Bedouin, have been permitted to volunteer for the Israeli army.

 

There are three mainstream Arab parties in Israel: Hadash (a joint Arab-Jewish party with a large Arab presence), Balad and the United Arab List, which is a coalition of several different political organizations including the Islamic Movement. In addition to these, Ahmed Tibi's Ta'al faction has been elected to the last two Knessets as part of alliances with Hadash and the United Arab List. Two Arab parties contested Israel's first election in 1949, with one, the Democratic List of Nazareth, winning two seats. Until the 1960s all Arab parties in the Knesset were affiliated with Mapai, the ruling party.

 

A minority of Arabs join and vote for Zionist parties; in the 2006 elections 30% of the Arab vote went to such parties, up from 25% in 2003,[128] though down on the 1999 (30.5%) and 1996 elections (33.4%).[129] Left-wing parties (i.e. Labor Party and Meretz-Yachad, and previously One Nation) are the most popular parties amongst Arabs, though some Druze have also voted for right-wing parties such as Likud and Yisrael Beitenu, as well as the centrist Kadima.

 

Arab participation in Israeli government

 

Palestinian Arabs sat in the state's first parliamentary assembly; currently, 12 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.[137]

 

In the public employment sphere, by the end of 2002, 6.1% of 56,362 Israeli civil servants were Arab.[138] In January 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared that every state-run company must have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board of directors.[139]

Arab figures in political, judicial and military positions

 

Cabinet: Nawaf Massalha, an Arab Muslim, has served in various junior ministerial roles, including Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, since 1999.[140] Until 2001, no Arab had been included in a Prime Minister's cabinet, or invited to join any political coalition. In 2001, this changed, when Salah Tarif, a Druze Arab citizen of Israel, was appointed a member of Sharon's cabinet without a portfolio. Tarif was later ejected after being convicted of corruption.[141] In 2007 the first non-Druze Arab minister in Israel's history, Raleb Majadele, was appointed a minister without portfolio, and a month later appointed minister for Science, Culture and Sport.[142][41] The appointment of Majadele was criticized by far-right Israelis, some of whom are also within the Cabinet, but this drew condemnation across the mainstream Israeli political spectrum.[42][143] Meanwhile Arab lawmakers called the appointment an attempt to "whitewash Israel's discriminatory policies against its Arab minority".[144][145]

 

Knesset: Arab citizens of Israel have been elected to every Knesset, and currently hold 12 of its 120 seats. The first female Arab MP was Hussniya Jabara, a Muslim Arab from central Israel, who was elected in 1999.[146]

 

Supreme Court: Abdel Rahman Zuabi, a secular Muslim from northern Israel, was the first Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court, serving a 9-month term in 1999. In 2004, Salim Jubran, a Christian Arab from Haifa descended from Lebanese Maronites, became the first Arab to hold a permanent appointment on the Court. Jubran's expertise lies in the field of criminal law.[147]

 

Foreign Service: Ali Yahya, an Arab Muslim, became the first Arab ambassador for Israel in 1995 when he was appointed ambassador to Finland. He served until 1999, and in 2006 was appointed ambassador to Greece. Other Arab ambassadors include Walid Mansour, a Druze, appointed ambassador to Vietnam in 1999, and Reda Mansour, also a Druze, a former ambassador to Ecuador. Mohammed Masarwa, an Arab Muslim, was Consul-General in Atlanta. In 2006, Ismail Khaldi was appointed Israeli consul in San Francisco, becoming the first Bedouin consul of the State of Israel.[148]

 

Israel Defense Forces: Arab Generals in the IDF include Major General Hussain Fares, commander of Israel's border police, and Major General Yosef Mishlav, head of the Israeli Home Front Command and current Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories.[149] Both are members of the Druze community.

 

Jewish National Fund: In 2007, Ra'adi Sfori became the first Arab citizen of Israel to be elected as a JNF director, over a petition against his appointment. The court upheld the JNF's appointment, explaining, "As this is one director among a large number, there is no chance he will have the opportunity to cancel the organization's goals." [150]

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Ja, det gjorde du.

 

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?showtopi...p=11812636&

 

Se innlegg 1989

 

Har du lesevansker? Jeg skrev:

 

Vet du hva? Jeg skal innrømme at det utsagnet ble litt vagt. Jeg omformulerer meg: Arabere blir ikke diskriminert av Israel som stat.

 

Det jeg prøvde å presisere som jeg tror ALLE bortsett fra deg fikk med seg var at rasisme fra enkeltpersoner er svært utbredt. Du vet virkelig hvordan gjøre deg tungnem. :)

 

:roll:

 

Og det sier du... :roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

Først og fremst: Ikke lat som om du ikke har sagt at det er rasisme mot palestinerne i Israel!

 

For det andre: Ikke lat som om de linkene jeg vist til ikke omhandler rasisme mot palestinerne i Israel. Gå gjerne til åpninginnlegget og les alle linkene du måtte ønske på nytt.

 

For det tredje: Når arabere/ palestinere som selv bor i Israel uttaler seg om levevillkårene, stat og styring samt rasisme og diskriminering i Israel så tror jeg langt mer på hva han sier enn på hva folk her på forumet sier.

 

Forøvrig: Dersom dette partiet av Lieerman skulle komme i en regjering med Likud, da blir det jo rasisme i den israelske regjeringen! Iallefall blir det rasistiske holdninger og det blir praktisert rasisme fra regjeringen dersom de gjennomfører de tingene han har snakket om!

 

Eller vil du benekte det?

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GrandMa, jeg ser frem til den dagen du klarer formulere egne meninger. Er du uenig med Ehud Olmert? Han lyver når han sier den israelske staten diskrimenerer mot arabere, og at den står overfor store utfordringer for å korrigere dette? Ingenting av det du skriver motsier noe av det jeg skrev, eller hva Olmert hevder, med mindre man er så sneversynt å definere fravær av diskrimering utelukkende ut i fra at en har like politiske rettigheter. Jeg synes det er avslørende, og uredelig på grensen til løgnaktig, å sitere fra en Wikipedia-artikkel om israelske arabere, men late som om avsnittet som omhandler diskriminering ikke eksisterer. Du siterer altså fra en anonym kilde for å underbygge din påstand om at det ikke diskrimineres overfor arabere av den israelske staten, men bruker ikke den delen av kilden som faktisk omhandler diskriminering.

 

Det er en så selektiv bruk av en kilde som det går an.

 

PS: det er relativt vanlig å legge til en kilde, men med tanken på at kilden din inneholder opplysninger som direkte motsier det du hevder forstår jeg at du ikke ønsker at andre ser deg nærmere etter i kortene. Igjen, avslørende.

Endret av Cybbe
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Først og fremst: Ikke lat som om du ikke har sagt at det er rasisme mot palestinerne i Israel!

 

Jeg har sagt at rasismen mot palestinerne fra enkeltpersoner, ikke den israelske staten.

 

For det andre: Ikke lat som om de linkene jeg vist til ikke omhandler rasisme mot palestinerne i Israel. Gå gjerne til åpninginnlegget og les alle linkene du måtte ønske på nytt.

 

Det går seint med deg Glimti.

 

Jeg quoter meg selv for jeg orker ikke bruke mer energi på å gjenta meg selv til deg.

Palestinerne blir forskjellsbehandlet (av staten. rasisme blant enkeltmenneskene florerer) på grunn av handlinger fra andre palestinere. Selvfølgelig er det uheldig og man skulle helst sett at alle ble behandlet likt. Når man blir forskjellsbehandlet på grunn av noe andre palestinere gjør er det selvfølgelig litt 'grumsete', men rasisme er det da virkelig ikke. Det har ingenting med deres rase å gjøre.

 

For det tredje: Når arabere/ palestinere som selv bor i Israel uttaler seg om levevillkårene, stat og styring samt rasisme og diskriminering i Israel så tror jeg langt mer på hva han sier enn på hva folk her på forumet sier.

 

Klart du stoler på enhver som sier noe som underbygger påstanden din. :) Ikke akkurat en overraskelse. Du må derimot lære deg at uttalelser fra enkeltpersoner er akkurat det. Uttalelser fra enkeltpersoner.

 

Forøvrig: Dersom dette partiet av Lieerman skulle komme i en regjering med Likud, da blir det jo rasisme i den israelske regjeringen! Iallefall blir det rasistiske holdninger og det blir praktisert rasisme fra regjeringen dersom de gjennomfører de tingene han har snakket om!

 

Det kan se slik ut, men vi får vente å se. Jeg håper hvertfall han ikke kommer i nærheten av noen maktposisjon.

Endret av Zeph
Ikkje sånn språkbruk takk :)
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Forresten, her er henvisningene i GrandMas kilde som omhandler diskriminering. De var hendig utelatt:

 

The document explains that by definition the "Jewish State" concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission.

...

JNF charter specifies the land purchased is for the use of the Jewish People. In the past, this was interpreted to mean that the JNF should not lease land to non-Jews, but the restriction was circumvented in practice, for example, by granting one-year leases to Bedouin herders.[112] As the ILA is a state agency, refusal to lease the land to Arabs has been seen as state-discrimination.[109] When the ILA did lease JNF land to Arabs, it took control of the land in question and compensated the JNF with an equivalent amount of land in areas not designated for development (generally in the Galilee and the Negev), thus ensuring that the total amount of land owned by the JNF remains the same.[110][113] This was a complicated and controversial mechanism, and in 2004 use of it was suspended. After various stages of legal resolution, including Supreme Court discussions and a directive by the Attorney General instructing the ILA to lease JNF land to Arabs and Jews alike, in September 2007 the JNF suggested reinstating the land-exchange mechanism.[110][114] The JNF currently owns 13% of land in Israel.[115][116]

...

Although this law theoretically applies to all Israelis, it has disproportionately affected Arab citizens of Israel;[158] Arabs are far more likely to have Palestinian spouses than other Israelis.[159] Thus the law has been widely considered discriminatory[160] and the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has unanimously approved a resolution saying that the Israeli law violated an international human rights treaty against racism.[161] Critics argue that the law is racist because it severely discourages incidents of intermarriage between Israelis and Palestinians, inhibits the ability of Palestinian Arabs with Israeli citizenship or in the Occupied Territories to marry, as a means of keeping dispersed Palestinian communities in isolation from one another and discouraging procreation between and betwixt the 'Green Line.'

...

Inequality in the allocation of public funding for Jewish and Arab needs, and widespread employment discrimination, present significant economic hurdles for Arab citizens of Israel.[165] On the other hand, the Minorities at Risk (MAR) group also states that despite discrimination, Arabs in Israel "are relatively much better off economically than neighboring Arabs."[166]

...

nequality in the allocation of public funding for Jewish and Arab needs, and widespread employment discrimination, present significant economic hurdles for Arab citizens of Israel.[165] On the other hand, MAR also states that despite discrimination, Arabs in Israel "are relatively much better off economically than neighboring Arabs."[166]

The New York Times (8 February 2007) affirms, "a recent report on poverty published last year by Israel’s National Insurance Institute indicated that 53 percent of the impoverished families in Israel are Arabs."[170] Of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 are Arab towns.[60] Further, according to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, for those Arabs citizens who are employed, salary averages are 29% lower than salary averages for Jewish workers.[60] Freedom House reported in 2006 that the fact that the majority of Arabs in Israel does not join the army – making them ineligible for financial benefits, including scholarships and housing loans – may be a factor in inferior access to education, housing, and social services in relation to the Jewish population.[171]

Difficulties in procuring employment have been attributed to a comparatively low level of education vis-a-vis their Jewish counterparts, insufficient employment opportunities in the vicinity of their towns, discrimination by Jewish employers, and competition with foreign workers in fields, such as construction, agriculture, etc.[60] Arab women have a higher unemployment rate in the work force relative to both religious and secular Jewish women. While among Arab men the employment is on par with Jewish men, 17% of Arab women are employed. This puts the Arab employment at 68% of the Israeli average. Druze and Christian Arabs have higher employment than Muslims.[172]

...

Recognition of discrimination

Official Israeli recognition

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.[184]

The Or Commission report also claims that activities by Islamic organizations may be using religious pretenses to further political aims. The commission describes such actions as a factor in 'inflaming' the Muslim population in Israel against the authorities, and cites the al-Sarafand mosque episode, with Muslims' attempts to restore the mosque and Jewish attempts to stop them, as an example of the 'shifting of dynamics' of the relationship between Muslims and the Israeli authorities.

 

[edit]

International recognition

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."[183]

The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices[183] notes that:

▪ "Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding."

▪ "Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."

▪ "In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."

▪ "Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."

▪ "Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service".

▪ "According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."

▪ "The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report [...] stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices[185] notes that:

▪ "According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."

Human Rights Watch has charged that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children: "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."[186]

According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[177]

Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its budget for healthcare facility development.[177]

 

[edit]

Contesting discrimination

Although the Israeli government acknowledges that "Israel has a high level of informal segregation patterns," it argues that this is primarily because of the self-segregating nature of Israel's ethnic groups. The Israeli Foreign Ministry maintains that in spite of certain social cleavages, the political systems and the courts "represent strict legal and civic equality."[187] Mitchell G. Bard addresses charges of inequality in his book Myths and Facts: a Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict. He writes that "Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where women may vote. [...] Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts [...]"[188]

According to Bard, "The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request." Similarly, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), a pro-Israel[189] media monitoring and research organization, argues that since they are not required to serve in military, yet still have all the rights accorded Jews in Israel, Arabs in Israel are at an advantage. As evidence they cite various cases in which Israeli courts have found in favor of Arab citizens.[190]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

 

Det er ganske så merkverdig prestasjon å sitere fra en artikkel i en diskusjon om diskriminering, men ved selektiv og uredelig klipping utelate alle av de 22 gangene "discrimination" er nevnt i teksten.

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