Celtic Mists

I've recently been wondering about how any 2 or 3 year old child starts learning a language and an adult learning the same language as well and if there's a different method between the two. As I said earlier I've been watching Swedish TV now for the past 5 or 6 years and guess I can now understand about 75%, to the point where satisfyingly I rarely switch on the subtitles.

I also now find myself unconciously getting the grammar more and more correct even though it stlll looks strange, so I'm starting to wonder if it's the same sort of joint learning method that all young babies and adults have ?

A bit like an unconscious sponge perhaps....?

.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSacz4GHQjs

You should try being English….?

Never really knew what the difference was between Queens's English and the aristos' versions, the latter often  being accused of having a plum in the mouth, a toff being pretentious and so on ! ? The heroine was however very natural and very genuine. What's the difference between Nynorsk and Bokmål ?

Do you know of any you tube etc. documentaries about the history of Norway say between 1600 - 1850 ?

Thanks for the links especially the sub titles of the American documentary of Norwegian communities which is already helping a lot. The silent film was interesting too showing life as it really was and why there must be many regional dialects still left today though no idea how many, presumably school children are still taught in regional dialects ? Equally as you no doubt already know there are still many regional dialects spoken in the UK today as well despite global media influences.

Incidentally I'm a fan of many prewar UK films when regional accents were still very common, so if you're interested the accents in the prewar film "Rebecca" below the actors speak English in probably what is its most purest form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_PBT-1vGA

Thank you for the links. Funny thing I've been watching Swedish TV for a good 5 or 6 years now and often saw Skavlan's programmes but never realised he was speaking Norwegian as it was unintelligible till this programme. I can just about follow what he says now so assume he's speaking a regional dialect, whereas Nerdrum soon became easier so assume he's speaking Båkmål ? Most interesting of all was to hear the lady in the red dress speaking Swedish which was great to listen to, both languages being immediately understood by all so it will be very useful indeed over the long term. ?

Hi again

I'm trying to find somewhere where Bokmål is spoken all the time as the daily news on NRK is a bit too fast and not long enough. Ideally where someone is narrating from a book with English sub titles to really get used to it so some light fiction novel or similar would be ideal.

Thanks ?

Thanks, it was really enjoyable to discover how easy it was listening to Bokmål for the first tme with little need to turn on the subtitles. Presumably the Voss and/or Sauda folk can understand written and spoken Bokmål ?

I think there are probably similar parallels to dialects in the more northern parts of Scotland and the Isles as well which only the locals can distinguish, so it would be interesting to compare the above two geographical regions at some stage.

Hej igen

Jag har titta på två Norsk filmer med två olika accenter, den forsta jag förstott bra men dem sekund var väldigt svårt. Jag tro de forst är Bokmål men den sekund jag har ingen aning om, kanske en av de många accenter genom hela Norge....?

Tack ?

https://tv.nrk.no/serie/roed-snoe/sesong/1/episode/1/avspiller

https://tv.nrk.no/serie/vestavind/sesong/1/episode/1/avspiller

Any leads you can find thanks, particularly survivors who might have known anyone in RAF 333 Bomber Squadron.

1 hour ago, process said:

Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are asymmetrically mutually intelligible. It's relatively unique and also confusing. The respective native speakers understand each other to a different degree. To add to the confusion this also depends on spoken vs written language. 

I'd provide the full matrix if was clear to me, but generally Norwegians understand spoken Swedish and written Danish, Danes don't understand Swedish, while the Swedes don't typically understand Norwegian nor Danish. 

I've inquired with a relative concerning one of the less common names in the 334 sqn., will let you know if I hear of anything.

Tack för din hjälp med att söka efter någon släkting.

Jag kan förstar omkring 70% - 75% av talad och skriven Svensk, båkmal Norsk kanske 50%, och förstår Norsk ungefär 30% med en liten skriftlig norsk. Äntligen ingen alls Danske kunskap.

25 minutes ago, jjkoggan said:

Swedes I have spoken to say that they understand most of what Norwegians say and also vice versa.  When I studied biology in Norway the textbook was in swedish, not norwegian and the students were expected to understand it more or less.  This was more challenging for me, of course.

I too,  have been searching ancestral information.  My grandfather, who was born in England and immigrated to Indiana as a boy, fought in the trenches in WWI in a canadian uniform.  Luckily there are no language barriers to my searches.

Interesting about your grandfather. If you haven't already have you tried any Google regiment searches about your grandfather from your info above ?

6 minutes ago, Budeia said:

You'll get far by speaking Swedish in Norway and vice versa, but certain words are challenging and will have to be changed. The actor Thomas von Brömssen has played in both Swedish and Norwegian tv-series.  "Rolig" means calm in Norwegian, but "funny" in Swedish and can cause misunderstandings. And there are other words too. 

Never knew that speaking Swedish in Norway one would be understood so very useful thank you ! However what about writing and reading in Swedish is that much the same or ? Equally vice versa....?

Btw I can still barely understand a word of Danish if it weren't for the subtitles !

14 minutes ago, jjkoggan said:

I have used  these fora for several years to practice my Norwegian.  Virtually all speak fluent English here and don't mind if you mix languages when you get stuck.  This one in particular has been used for non-native speakers to  practice and get advice on speaking proper Norwegian.

Norwegians generally are pleased when you show interest in their language and culture and love to help, at least that is my experience as an american.

Great thank you very helpful indeed. I can get by ok with a fair amount of Norwegian text as there are quite a lot of recognizable similar words in Swedish too, equally spoken Norwegian as well if it's Bokmål which from what I've heard most Swedes can also follow.

I think the obvious first question is do Swedes set out to write and speak in Norwegian and vice versa, assuming that the Norwegians can in similar fashion understand Swedish anyway ?

6 minutes ago, Budeia said:

At least I found one here: (defence's veteran center)  https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_veteransenter

Not sure about other disussion forums, maybe you could look at youtube and ask someone there.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbrUYR892qBNQyY3DEqfTBg

Thank you the Defence's Veteran's Centre residents sounds a great place to start as I think they would have a lot of memories and had the time since then to have done quite a lot of research into it all....

Yes thank you again good idea. In the UK we've got a few retirement homes for the armed forces such as in the link below. Are there any similar ones like this one in Norway ?

https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-support/care-and-independent-living/our-care-homes

Incidentally are there any Norwegian English forums anywhere I could join as well as it would be great practice....?

Thanks ?

Great many thanks and very interesting indeed though I cheated a bit as my Swedish wasn't up to it ?

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aeronorge.no%2Fkulturarv%2F2018%2F20181213.html

Do you know if they had any reunions as we did after the war was over on the offchance that they might have kept records  ?

Always glad to help with any translations....

A bit off topic I know so apologies as I don't know where to post this but can anyone help....?

I was going through some of my father's old RAF papers recently and found a note he had written soon after the war about a Norwegian bomber or fighter Squadron based in Scotland, presumably because it was quite close to Norway.

He got to know quite a few of them because his job was collecting spare parts from crashed bombers and fighters, but didn't mention which Squadron the Norwegian crews were in. However he did say that he and several other RAF friends from 333 Bomber Squadron all spent a lot of time in the nearest pub, but they could never understand a word they said whether they were sober or drunk until they spoke English !

At the bottom of the note long before the internet he said "Must write to the War Office" which he sadly never did, so does anyone know who best to contact in Norway these days ?

Thanks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._331_Squadron_RAF

Jag har Opera browser med VPN som kommit med det, men jag är har en stor problem att försöka att titta på Norsk TV som de säja att jag kan inte titta på det från utomlands. Men detta är konstigt som det fungera fint på Sveriges TV....

Vad gör jag på fel....?

Tack

Har problemer i Storbritannia med Opera VPN fordi det fortsetter å si at det ikke er tilgjengelig utenfor Norge av en eller annen grunn. Setter pris på hjelp eller råd takk ....

 

 

Tja. Har et familiemedlem som er Engelsk, og jeg har fått høre mye negativt om nordmenn ^^ at vi er naive, dumme og godtroende. Og England er det beste i hele verden. Så det har vært nødvendig for meg å adoptére en holdning om at hele verden er i slekt og at alle er egentlig ganske ilke.

 

Jeg visste ikke at mange nordmenn meldte seg inn i det Engelske militæret da. Eller jo, har vel hørt det i en dokumentar en gang. Også hørt at England sendte mange fotsoldater hit for å hjelpe mot Tyskerne.

 

Hvis jeg skal legge vekk den meningen jeg har fått høre hele livet, så ser jeg kanskje noen likheter. Men folk flest er jo egentlig ganske like over hele verden.

 

Jeg vil nok mene at Engelske folk har en litt mer stiv og patriotisk holdning. "Stiff upper lip" ^^ Noe jeg tror har kommet av at Engelske folk bor mer tett, så det blir mer nødvendig å utvikle mer rigide sosiale koder for å komme overens psykologisk. Nordmenn, vi kan kanskje være litt sånn vi også, men det er færre av oss, lengre avstand, så vi er kanskje litt mer runde i kantene, "bønda i fra nord".

 

Men som du nevner, i de siste 20-30 år, så har det nok skjedd en liten endring. Først og fremst er det jo urbaniseringen, at større byer vokser frem, at større mengder av befolkningen flytter til byene og blir "byfolk". Altså kanskje litt mer lik Engelske folk, eller i hvert fall prøver å være ^^ Dette tror jeg er noe som er nytt for ganske mange nordmenn i dag.

 

Men, en skjult faktor jeg tror påvirker særlig nordmenn, og mange vestlige og europeiske land, er dessverre denne snik-indoktrineringen av Amerikanske verdier, via tv og medier. Amerikanske søppel-tv-programmer, billige show med billige konsepter, er med på å influere og påvirke. Det er noe dritt og svineri. Jeg skjønner heller ikke helt hvorfor England/Storbritannia lar det skje, for Amerika stammer jo fra Engelske nysettere. Men de har jo kriget for sin frihet de også. Men det er jo absurd, hele situasjonen, at Amerikanere har slåss fra å frigjøre seg fra sine egne røtter. Og nå skal de liksom "ta over verden". Vi ser jo hvordan det går, med en total surrehue som Trump som leder der nå.

 

Nei, det er villedet, og jeg vet ikke hvordan enden på visa blir. Det er mulig det må en verdenskrig til, én siste krig, hvor vinneren får bestemme i all fremtid. Dessverre. Men det er ikke sikkert det skjer før mange hundre år til, tar tid før ting tilspisser seg. Knapphet på ressurser blir nok en dominerende faktor, godt hjulpet av religionsforskjeller.

 

 

Yes I agree that increasing urbanization coupled with the fact that the Internet has had such a big impact tends to blur those earlier definitions you mentioned prior to the internet, except I think for the older generation now in their Sixties and Seventies.

I couldn’t agree with you more either about Americanisation, however thanks to YouTube etc. I can steer well clear of it all, spending quite a lot of time on old English and Nordic programmes and films from just after the war till about the Eighties. But what I really do find saddest of all is how many people in the Nordic countries have the most dreadful American nasal accents which jars the ears enormously, doesn’t anyone speak with an English accent ?

As for letting cheap concepts and influence happening to us well we never had any real choice in the matter and why I finally threw out my old TV set in about 2003 and have never watched it since, always preferring a good book.

Nevertheless I still feel like a lot of us do over here that the underlying unwritten similarity of both our ancient cultures will always be there, born out of mutual respect and a strong sense of common decency which no amount of brainwashing can ever remove.

As to the long term future of mankind sadly I can’t see how the planet itself can survive for another 100 years or so anyway, whether slowly dying from increasing levels of global air pollution, increasing overpopulation, forests disappearing, glaciers melting or most stupidly of all a World War.

So I guess to enjoy life as much we can….

No need to apologize there'll always be the odd ones out and one of the big disadvantages of the Net, nevertheless it's nice to have found a normal home on the Net at last....seriously

A bit too difficult to reply in Norwegian so apologies for being in English….

Heavens so much to take in all at once but very interesting thank you with lots to think and talk about, but quickly first of all you’re absolutely wrong to say that you are naïve, stupid and gullible !

That’s just probably because of sadly so much English/British aggressiveness on the Net these days towards the world and life in general not looking at themselves in the mirror first. This is why I love watching Norwegian TV etc. just to escape from them and get back to your quiet world of normal human feelings and reactions again.

I need to give some time and thought to what you’ve said, but in the meantime have a look at these wartime links to realise just how important and vital Norway’s support was right from the declaration of WWII….

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=euyuXZS6IsrUsAeAqqvABQ&q=Raf+Norwegians+in+WWII&oq=Raf+Norwegians+in+WWII&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3566.3566..5543...0.0..0.122.122.0j1......0....2j1..gws-wiz.....0.qRpFv9T2-IY&ved=0ahUKEwiU34T_5a_lAhVKKuwKHQDVClgQ4dUDCAc&uact=5https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Norwegian_forces

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/23/a2009323.shtml

Lots of thoughts to follow !

Hej

One more link....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Narvik#Land_battle

 

Tja. Har et familiemedlem som er Engelsk, og jeg har fått høre mye negativt om nordmenn ^^ at vi er naive, dumme og godtroende. Og England er det beste i hele verden. Så det har vært nødvendig for meg å adoptére en holdning om at hele verden er i slekt og at alle er egentlig ganske ilke.

 

Jeg visste ikke at mange nordmenn meldte seg inn i det Engelske militæret da. Eller jo, har vel hørt det i en dokumentar en gang. Også hørt at England sendte mange fotsoldater hit for å hjelpe mot Tyskerne.

 

Hvis jeg skal legge vekk den meningen jeg har fått høre hele livet, så ser jeg kanskje noen likheter. Men folk flest er jo egentlig ganske like over hele verden.

 

Jeg vil nok mene at Engelske folk har en litt mer stiv og patriotisk holdning. "Stiff upper lip" ^^ Noe jeg tror har kommet av at Engelske folk bor mer tett, så det blir mer nødvendig å utvikle mer rigide sosiale koder for å komme overens psykologisk. Nordmenn, vi kan kanskje være litt sånn vi også, men det er færre av oss, lengre avstand, så vi er kanskje litt mer runde i kantene, "bønda i fra nord".

 

Men som du nevner, i de siste 20-30 år, så har det nok skjedd en liten endring. Først og fremst er det jo urbaniseringen, at større byer vokser frem, at større mengder av befolkningen flytter til byene og blir "byfolk". Altså kanskje litt mer lik Engelske folk, eller i hvert fall prøver å være ^^ Dette tror jeg er noe som er nytt for ganske mange nordmenn i dag.

 

Men, en skjult faktor jeg tror påvirker særlig nordmenn, og mange vestlige og europeiske land, er dessverre denne snik-indoktrineringen av Amerikanske verdier, via tv og medier. Amerikanske søppel-tv-programmer, billige show med billige konsepter, er med på å influere og påvirke. Det er noe dritt og svineri. Jeg skjønner heller ikke helt hvorfor England/Storbritannia lar det skje, for Amerika stammer jo fra Engelske nysettere. Men de har jo kriget for sin frihet de også. Men det er jo absurd, hele situasjonen, at Amerikanere har slåss fra å frigjøre seg fra sine egne røtter. Og nå skal de liksom "ta over verden". Vi ser jo hvordan det går, med en total surrehue som Trump som leder der nå.

 

Nei, det er villedet, og jeg vet ikke hvordan enden på visa blir. Det er mulig det må en verdenskrig til, én siste krig, hvor vinneren får bestemme i all fremtid. Dessverre. Men det er ikke sikkert det skjer før mange hundre år til, tar tid før ting tilspisser seg. Knapphet på ressurser blir nok en dominerende faktor, godt hjulpet av religionsforskjeller.

 

Tja. Har et familiemedlem som er Engelsk, og jeg har fått høre mye negativt om nordmenn ^^ at vi er naive, dumme og godtroende. Og England er det beste i hele verden. Så det har vært nødvendig for meg å adoptére en holdning om at hele verden er i slekt og at alle er egentlig ganske ilke.

 

Jeg visste ikke at mange nordmenn meldte seg inn i det Engelske militæret da. Eller jo, har vel hørt det i en dokumentar en gang. Også hørt at England sendte mange fotsoldater hit for å hjelpe mot Tyskerne.

 

Hvis jeg skal legge vekk den meningen jeg har fått høre hele livet, så ser jeg kanskje noen likheter. Men folk flest er jo egentlig ganske like over hele verden.

 

Jeg vil nok mene at Engelske folk har en litt mer stiv og patriotisk holdning. "Stiff upper lip" ^^ Noe jeg tror har kommet av at Engelske folk bor mer tett, så det blir mer nødvendig å utvikle mer rigide sosiale koder for å komme overens psykologisk. Nordmenn, vi kan kanskje være litt sånn vi også, men det er færre av oss, lengre avstand, så vi er kanskje litt mer runde i kantene, "bønda i fra nord".

 

Men som du nevner, i de siste 20-30 år, så har det nok skjedd en liten endring. Først og fremst er det jo urbaniseringen, at større byer vokser frem, at større mengder av befolkningen flytter til byene og blir "byfolk". Altså kanskje litt mer lik Engelske folk, eller i hvert fall prøver å være ^^ Dette tror jeg er noe som er nytt for ganske mange nordmenn i dag.

 

Men, en skjult faktor jeg tror påvirker særlig nordmenn, og mange vestlige og europeiske land, er dessverre denne snik-indoktrineringen av Amerikanske verdier, via tv og medier. Amerikanske søppel-tv-programmer, billige show med billige konsepter, er med på å influere og påvirke. Det er noe dritt og svineri. Jeg skjønner heller ikke helt hvorfor England/Storbritannia lar det skje, for Amerika stammer jo fra Engelske nysettere. Men de har jo kriget for sin frihet de også. Men det er jo absurd, hele situasjonen, at Amerikanere har slåss fra å frigjøre seg fra sine egne røtter. Og nå skal de liksom "ta over verden". Vi ser jo hvordan det går, med en total surrehue som Trump som leder der nå.

 

Nei, det er villedet, og jeg vet ikke hvordan enden på visa blir. Det er mulig det må en verdenskrig til, én siste krig, hvor vinneren får bestemme i all fremtid. Dessverre. Men det er ikke sikkert det skjer før mange hundre år til, tar tid før ting tilspisser seg. Knapphet på ressurser blir nok en dominerende faktor, godt hjulpet av religionsforskjeller.